სოსო მანჯავიძე: მე აქ ზღაპრებს კი არ ვყვები, მართლა ასეთი გაუგებარი, კომიკური სიტუაციაა. . .

aSS-is identuri politikis dafiqsirebiT, `qarTul ocnebas~ hqonda imedi, rom vaSingtonis axali administracia gansakuTrebuli loialobiT moepyroboda, Tumca `megobari aqtiT~ gamoCnda, rom cota gansxvavebulad aris saqme. pasuxad premierma Ria werili miswera tramps, xolo saqarTvelos parlamentma am aqts `mtruli~ uwoda da mTeli es procesi `dif sTeiTs~ gadaabrala. opozicia ki acxadebs, rom mmarTveli Zala „va bankze“ midis, radikalurad moqmedebs, raTa situacia Secvalos. am sakiTxze da saerTaSoriso konfliqtebze saubrobs `aWarasTan~ eqskluziur interviuSi politologi soso manjaviZe, romelic miiCnevs, rom mTavrobas sxva diplomatiuri arxebi aRar darCa da trampTan xmis misawvdenad Ria werili amitom airCia. gTavazobT masTan intervius.

– batono soso, rogor daakomentarebT kobaxiZis Ria werils, opoziciam isic ki Tqva, premieri ruseTTan gzebs eZebs da am weriliT cdilobs dasavleTisgan gamoTavisuflebaso.

– ruseTofrenia ukve maniad iqca, romliT Sepyrobili xalxi, samwuxarod, axal-axal mwvervalebs ipyrobs. Cveni mosaxleobis raRac nawili eqvemdebareba am narativebis oms, Zalian martivi meqanizmia da Zalian kargad muSaobs, rogorc Zveli Tofi. rac Seexeba kobaxiZis Ria werils, rodesac erTi saxelmwifos xelmZRvaneli am formiT mimarTav meore saxelmwifos xelmZRvanels, es niSnavs, rom diplomatiis da komunikaciis sxva arxebze wvdoma aRar gaqvs, vgulisxmob saelCoebs an Tundac araformalur komunikaciebs.

– werilis Sinaarsze ras ityviT?

– kargi, gadavideT werilis Sinaarsze. iq weria, rom emTxveva Cveni Rirebulebebi, Tqveni mxardamWerebi varT, magram Cven mimarT ratomRac isev grZeldeba mtruli politika, romelic orpartiuli konsensusiT miRebuli `megobari aqtis~ safuZvelze mimdinareobs da iTvaliswinebs saqarTvelos dacvas iranis, CineTis da ruseTis zegavlenisagan.

– es qveynebi ra SuaSia?

– araferSi. . . es ukve absurdic ar aris, absurdis pikia. ra SuaSia an CineTi an irani. gasagebia, rom Sarze arian, magaliTad, qudi ratom gaxuravso. . . sabWoTa armiaSi arsebul `dedovSinas~ ufro Camogavs es miTiTeba, gamonaxes gamxmovaneblad cnobili meqrTame da garewari jo uilsoni. . . swored aq gamoikveTa aSkara konsensusi, rac daadastura kidec `megobarma aqtma~. amaze Tvalis daxuWva da imis imedad darCena, TiTqos trampma ar icis da Ria weriliT unda gavagebinoTo, ara mgonia, iyos swori midgoma.

– aba, ra unda eqnaT?

– saqme isaa, rom `dif sTeiTs~ visac eZaxian, neokonebi, uxvad arian warmodgenili trampis administraciaSic. rac unda xisti gancxadebebi akeTos batonma prezidentma, magaliTad marko rubioc gveyofa, sxvebi rom ar CamovTvalo. mTeli es viTomda megobruli mimarTebiT Cveulebrivi farisevlobaa, romelic naTlad gamoCnda CvenTan damokidebulebaSi – deklarirebul da Ria politikas Soris. amave dros, rogorc iciT, geopolitikuri vaWrobis sagnad samxreT kavkasiacaa qceuli, romlis centraluri nawili saqarTveloa. aqedan gamomdinare, gvaqvs didi Sansi, moviTxovoT kargi fasi. swored esaa trampis administraciis da evrokavSiris ignoris ZiriTadi mizezi.

– saqarTvelos ra pozicia ukavia mTel am sqemaSi?

– praqtikulad, strategiuli adgili gviWiravs im aqtiviT, romelic sabWoTa kavSiridan SemogvrCa – Sav zRvaze ganlagebuli portebi warmoadgens hartlendidan Tbil zRvebze gasasvlels. Savi zRvisTvis ra sisxliani procesebic mimdinareobs, igive ukrainaSi, kargad mogexsenebaT. . . anu, Cven gvaqvs gauyinavi portebi, yureebi da a.S. aqedan gamomdinare, saqarTvelos gaaCnia myari strategiuli mniSvneloba mTeli rigi regionebisTvis, magaliTad, Sua aziisTvis, CineTisTvis, indoeTisTvis, iranisTvis. . . aRar vlaparakob azerbaijanze, ruseTsa da TurqeTze. warmoidgineT uzarmazari WurWeli, romlis viwro yeli saqarTveloa. aravin aris dainteresebuli, rogorc politikurma naciam, Cveni momgebiani geopolitikuri mdebareoba Cvensave sakeTildReod gamoviyenoT, davadoT Cveni fasi da SevideT sakuTari geopolitikuri dividendebis wilSi. swored amiT aixsneba saqarTvelos mimarT warmoudgenlad usamarTlo damokidebuleba, rac gamoixateba dapirispirebasa Tu uazro dasanqcirebebSi. mTel am qmedebas ki asabuTeben moraluri terminebiT, e.w. demokratiuli ukusvliT da aq arsebul tiraniasTan brZoliT, rac sruli komediaa.

– tiranias komediad miiCnevT?

– ara, Tavad situaciaa komikuri. . . iq, sadac 10 telearxidan 7 – opoziciuria, saidanac uxvad ismis lanZRva, gineba da muqara, zustad arsebuli tiraniis gansaxierebaa, aba ra aris (gulianad icinis – i.c.). . . es aris raRac axali movlena kacobriobis istoriaSi. is, rac CvenTan xdeba, evropaSi ki arada, arsad unaxavT. Cemi frangulisTvis mapatieT, magram ai, es degeneratebi, am sityvis sruli mniSvnelobiT, romlebic specialurad gamozardes utvinobis da uzrdelobis parametrebiT, telegadacemaSi monawileoben da iZaxian, saqarTveloSi sityvis Tavisufleba ar ariso, mosamarTleebs lanZRaven da acxadeben, tiraniaao, cemen, afeTqeben policielebs da saqarTvelos ukve ara ruseTs, sulac CrdiloeT koreas adareben, diplomatiuri urTierToba ar gvaqvs ruseTTan da mTavrobas prorusulobas abraleben. Tavad isini ki, vinc amaT diriJoroben, arafers gvaZleven, arafers gvpirdebian da gvibrZaneben, gavamwvavoT ruseTTan urTierToba, vinaidan xelsayreli geopolitikuri pozicia giWiravTo. fulsac ar gvTavazoben, Tqven ruseTs seriozul winaaRmdegobas mainc ver gauwevT, ar gyavT didi armia, sam dReSi gadagasworeben da fuli raRatom davxarjoT, mxolod propagandistuli miznebisTvis Tu gamogiyenebTo. undaT daamtkicon, TiTqos ruseTi apirebs postsabWoTa sivrcis aRdgenas. arc investiciebis Cadebas apireben, gagvigeT, Tu ruseTi gaganadgurebT (rac mosalodnelia kidec – s.m.), investiciebi tyuili kapitaldabandeba iqnebao. . . ai, swored asea saqme, me aq zRaprebs ki ar vyvebi, marTla aseTi gaugebari, komikuri situaciaa. . . rac SeiZleba ufro metma adamianma unda gaigos, ra cinizmi da absurdi trialebs Cvens Tavs.

– Tu ase ar unda amerikas CineTis aq SemoSveba, Tavad ratom ar mixeda anakliis ports?

– amaSia saqme, rom eubnebi, CadeT portSi fuli – ar undaT. Tan iqve gafrTxileben, CineTs Tavi daanebeT, maT ar daabandon TqvenTan kapitalio. . . jer kidev rodis vwerdi anakliaze, rom `amerikelebi amas ar dauSveben, Tu Tavad ar Cadeben fuls~. aqve isic gaixseneT, sxva investorebi rom ar mogveZebna, sakuTar agentebs daavales portis proeqtis CaSla, Tanac ise, rom biujeti daezaralebinaT.

– romel agentebs gulisxmobT?

– ai, is xazaraZe, qinZs rom hgavs, Caeria am ambavSi, iTaRliTa, fulic gamosZala saxelmwifos. . . Semdeg iuridiulad ecada mTavrobis dadanaSaulebas, iqiT edaveboda miliardnaxevars, Tumca ver moaxerxa. viTom amerikeli investori hyavda, arada, politikuri nebarTvis gareSe, kapiks ar Cagidebs arc erTi amerikeli biznesmeni. cxadia, geopolitikurad, aSS-s anaklia araferSi sWirdeboda, ubralod, am sqemiT, karga xnis ganmavlobaSi dablokes es proeqti. axla ki, faqtobrivad, omi mimdinareobs, rom ar aSendes anakliis porti. . . dRemde xazaraZe `didi qarTveli~ hgoniaT, progresuli kaci da Tqven warmoidgineT, momxreebic hyavs, absurdis Teatria, aba ra aris. . .

– 9 maiss si Zinpinma moskovSi gamoacxada, rom CineTi da ruseTi mokavSireebi da strategiuli partniorebi arian, riTac wertili dausva ruseTis CineTisTvis dapirispirebis trampiseul mcdelobebs. rogor aisaxeba maTi kavSiri saqarTveloze, CineTi xom, praqtikulad, Semosulia Cvens qveyanaSi?

– rac Seexeba CineTis Semosvlas, aq cota sxva kuTxiT unda ganvixiloT movlenebi. CineT-ruseTis kavSiri, ZiriTadad, Statebis politikiTaa ganpirobebuli, aseve imiTac, rom CineTi ukve pozicionirebs, rogorc msoflio lideri. ukve karga xania, rac msoflios demografiuli, politikuri da ekonomikuri centri iCoCebs evraziis aRmosavleTiT, sadac Tavi moiyara kacobriobis udidesma umravlesobam. indoeTSi, indoneziasa da CineTSi koncetrirebulia dedamiwaze arsebuli mosaxleobis ori mesamedi. Sesabamisad, iqve inacvlebs finansuri Zlierebac. imitom ibrZvis trampi ase gaafTrebiT… misi mizani aSS-is msoflioze dominirebaa. Tu ar gamouva, ecdeba, supersaxelmwifos sakadrisi adgili mainc daikavos. amisTvis surs ukraina-ruseTis omis misTvis xelsayrel variantSi Caqroba. aseve, apirebs aziasa da axlo aRmosavleTis regionebze upirobo gavlenis mopovebas. ruseTTanac ki cdilobs mravalwliani rusul-amerikuli mtrobis SeCerebas.

– pakistan-indoeTis konfliqtze ras ityviT?

– es erT-erTi yvelaze konfliqturi zona iyo da aris. tibetis regionTan erTmaneTs esazRvreba sami atomuri saxelmwifo. aqedan gamomdinare, aq konfliqti msofliosTvis sakmaod did safrTxes warmoadgens. pakistansa da indoeTs Soris oTxi didi omi da mudmivi wvrilmani dapirispirebebi iyo, romelic yovelTvis indoeTis gamarjvebiT sruldeboda. rac Seexeba pekinis da delis urTierTobebs, unda vicodeT, rom pakistani CineTis sateliti qveyanaa. adre pakistani aSS-is mokavSired miiCneoda, Tumca dRes mxolod da mxolod CineTs uWers mxars. CineTidan iaraRis eqsportis 90% pakistanze modis, anu mTlianad aiaraRebs mas. cnobisaTvis, pakistanis mosaxleoba, am saxelmwifos Seqmnidan (1947 wels) Tu 60 milioni iyo, dRes 240 milionia. isic ar dagaviwydeT, rom CineTsa da indoeTs Sorisac arsebobs teritoriuli pretenziebi da geopolitikuri winaaRmdegobebi. nebismieri supergaerTianebisTvis arsebobs Semdegi kanoni: yvela maTgani miiswrafvis gafarToebisken. vinc ar farTovdeba, Semdeg pataravdeba da irRveva im nakerebze, romliTac Seikera. Sesabamisad, axla CineTsa da indoeTs Sorisac arsebobs Zalian seriozuli winaaRmdegoba. indoeTs Tavisi xedvebi aqvs, kerZod, miiCnevs, rom pakistani aris britanuli kolonializmis produqti, riTac mas Seumqnes sapirwone, iseve, rogorc CineTs – taivanis saxiT, xolo saqarTvelos – afxazeTis… erTi da igive teqnologiaa.

– isic ki iTqva, rom CineT-ruseTis axali kavSiri `ruseTTan yovlismomcveli partnioroba~, zegavlenas iqoniebs msoflio wesrigze. . .

– ra axali kavSiri daamyares? rogorc urTierTobdnen, isec gaagrZeleben. Cinuri eqspansia rusul ekonomikaSi aSkaraa. elementarulad, Cinuri satvirTo manqanebi ruseTSi gacilebiT sWarbobs rusuls anu Cinuri brendebi da maRalteqnologiuri warmoeba ukve didi xania dominirebs rusul bazarze. aqedan gamomdinare, CineTi ar aris dainteresebuli, rom ruseTma Tavad aaSenos im madneulis gadamamuSavebeli sawarmoebi, romelsac kolosaluri raodenobiT agzavnis CineTSi. Tavad ruseTsac ar sWirdeba es, radgan monaxa sakuTari niSa – gadaiqca soflis meureobis produqciis eqsportis gigantad.

– e.i. Tqven fiqrobT, rom CineTi ukraina-ruseTis omSi ar CaerTveba?

– ara, CineTs ukrainis omSi CarTva ar sWirdeba, sakmaod TavdaWerilia da ganyenebuli pozicia uWiravs. formulireba: `ruseTTan yovlismomcveli partnioroba~, misTvis ar aris urTierTobis umaRlesi forma, magaliTad, iseTi, rogoric aqvs pakistanTan, romelTan megobrobasac si Zinpini „uryev Zmobas“ uwodebs. . . anu Zalian faqizi niuansebia. . . kerZod, partniorobs ruseTTan, magram ar aris Zalian Tavgadakluli Zma. pekins moskovi sWirdeba, Tu aSS-Tan dapirispireba miva samxedro konfliqtamde. . . aseve, mTeli rigi iafi nedleulis mommarageblad, Tumca isic unda icodes yvelam, rom CineTi ar abandebs fuls ruseTSi, gacilebiT meti aqvs dabandebuli Sua aziaSi, sadac misi gavlena izrdeba yofili rusuli gavlenis sapirwoned, anu CineTi ar aris ruseTis ideuri mokavSire. iq komunisturi partiaa, xolo putins sul sxva tipis mmarTveloba aqvs. ruseTis Zmaa CrdiloeT korea, iqidan ibrZvian jariskacebi ukrainaSi, CineTi ki arasodes daTanxmdeba omSi CarTvas, radgan amiT urTierTobebs gaifuWebs im qveynebTan, romlebTanac sarfiani ekonomikuri kavSirebi aqvs.

irma cecxlaZe